just not part of your implemented methodology, but if you would create a world based on the error, then that would be a thing right. Yeah, you know like, I think one of the things I've learned so far about, you know, engaging in practices. And I think this is why I love studying this computational art is because the whole root of it is about helping you kind of build a process. And regardless of, you know how, you know how the results of some of your implementations of that process may fall into a positive and your interpretation of what positive means, at that time. And then what is negative, it almost doesn't matter, it's the exploration, and that exploration is the only thing that counts, and then when you kind of focus your processes on that, you almost don't care about like, Oh, is it gonna sound good, or because that, that interpretation is just yours at that very moment in time that you can see the idea. And then if you get too caught into that, that, that itself is another struggle about even getting the work out and getting people, you know what I mean. Yeah. Sometimes, though, taking the risk of this may not sound perfectly in tune, but maybe it will. When you perform it at the time that you do it, you know, so, oh it's a it's. What do you say really like really, I feel relate to it, I mean the idea of like, you know, I mean, not necessarily to think within the object, or concept of an object, making the final result result of the production and asking questions, but what the art is, what are we doing, and I find that the art actually is part is in the process itself, there's so many things that happen in the process that cannot be translated into something that comes afterward it really is relate to the real space time and any attempt to kind of bring it into an visual experience or experience for audience could be something that informs by that experience that then is gone and. And I guess that's why I also think a lot about documentation and how documentation and archive is so important in the process of improvisation and experimentation because things happen there that there might not be kind of a really flashy mastery work of art, but they had such an authenticity such a moment of revelation that can tell so much energy. And I think it really speaks to the nature of my practice the way I work, I mean I, I kind of take the liberty to move in between materials in between spaces in between worlds. And it's not always a comfortable place to be because sometimes I am very frustrated because I feel I don't have anything. I don't have like that thing. And, and I feel like sometimes all my, my teammates materials, my work is scattered in between places. But I guess, but over time I, I came in peace with it that this is the nature of my practice, this is where I work, so yeah, it's a constant struggle like even though, you know that now. You know at some point later on and that feeling might come up again. When you export another new thing. And you know, but you'll overcome it even faster, because you know it's just part of your practice, you know, at that point and at some point and you're using that energy to say well how far can I go in this thing. You know I'm not a blacksmith, but I'm going to try to do this thing because I want that metal piece in this piece and I want it to be like that and I want the essence of that, what that person would have to go through to make that metal like that was part of your thinking. And you may not be able to bend it the way you want or work with the heat the way you want, but it was that process of, you know, perhaps embodying the fact that you wanted to make that part of it. Authentic where you went through that process yourself and what does that mean to be able to do it now is there's so much more knowledge that I may be able to get as close as I could to be a blacksmith but not fully because I don't have that other thing that, that, that makes them a master or II. But yeah I think that's, I think that kind of stuff is exciting and, you know, just thinking about what you were saying about you know the the in between and the ability to archive and document because there's so much that we do that moves so quickly. There are so many things that we don't even observe. That's one of the things I love about photography. One of the things I love about it is that it was a way for me to capture things that I'm not always looking at, as opposed to it being which which bothered me because a lot of people thought I was a photographer, but I was not unlike a visual artist, using a camera. That's what hallelujah for this Yeah. Like can you take my headshot now I was like no, no, I can't, unless you're part of my apple tree documentary I don't want to stand in front of one I'm not taking your headshot, but I'm going through photography was an interesting way, like for me I was a digital technology person, and picking up photography, obviously you can imagine getting into digital photography was the way I got into it. Yeah, yeah, I'm the biggest advocate of film that you'll ever come across, but also the biggest digital person in the world and people find that a little confusing, they're like well what is this film camera you're like, you can use a digital camera get higher resolution and actually that's not entirely true, because like my exploration of the medium has exposed me to this knowledge of it that yes, they do they still be more higher resolution than digital, because people forget about the zero and one and there's things in between the zero and one that your digital is not getting captured. So it's also about things, the way you see it's not about, like, you're not, if I understand you not have this desire to master the media, like you you you use it you, you even like completely open to the mistakes like the to do to immerse yourself in the things that you don't know in and within that and with the media, so it's. So it's a different way of approaching photography, there's some people say you really have to master, you really have to know all the components of the camera in order to capture they can have the most sharp crease most beautiful photograph but. But what about seeing about looking about indicating or delivering a message through it, it's not even just like the mastering of a, I mean, but it could be it could be for that person, maybe that's what they do. And that's what they're doing, they're doing that with maybe the camera is just one element of the technologies they decide to just fully immerse themselves into understanding so way of functioning. and that could be a thing in itself as well. But yeah, like, it's not, you know, that's why the one of the personal things that's ongoing because it's like a personal practice of mine to still engage in fine art photography and landscape, but like it's always this thing where, you know there's always like that separation here photographer fine art photographer I hate those classified. It's done. It's over. So over, but the point that I was making is that I was thinking about how all those different methods I've engaged in photography. As our research really has really got me into thinking about the same thing you're talking about archiving and capture and going through my own work I think about. I have like about 50,000 photos that I've taken. And I think about every time that I just go to something, it's brand new, I look at, I look at it, I'm like, I don't remember that part, but I remember I took this photo, because the landscape was filled with detail, so it took a series because I knew that later on, even if it was five years later, I'm gonna go look at this. Oh yeah, I never seen before. So that's how I took photos a lot, not for, you know, it was really about, I guess, studying the world, as opposed to it being, you know, an extra time, I have an archive obsession like i i buy archives in different places and I clouds and Dropbox every time I can I'm a really freak of having like I have an obsession about archive, just to keep the materials into the Toronto archives. I haven't been yet, no. I have a good card. Yes, really we should go maybe we should have a bike there it's near Castle Loma. Yeah we should go and have a trip. But, but, yeah, I wanted to say that really is about you know the events that happens in between also coming back to that in between the moment where you capture an image, it's a moment in your life, with a set of events and experiences you are in a certain moment, and then time goes by and you are returning and this image is a portal, it is is a pointer that brings you back to a moment. And, and so you're reflecting it from a certain time, but there's so many things that happened this extra layers of information materials that let you see differently and I think that's, that's, that's the most important thing about the photograph that's I guess why I would take a photograph because often you're not really fully able to really articulate what was that thing, that is, or when you have an idea and you can take you years to to articulate an idea. But then at some point you go back and you're like okay I see it now. I see. And that's I think that's the importancy of the photograph. Totally. You can totally use it to even answer questions of emotion, to get about a few times where I've actually done that it's rare that I've done it but every single time it's been perfect every time I couldn't explain, you know to someone. Oh, the weather in Toronto is kind of like eerie feeling when it rains because it's kind of like this and they're kind of like well what do you mean by that and we're like, you know, I think of a photo where I've captured a photo during the time that I felt that, and then I would show it to the person and they would just understand because they get that same energy and that same feeling of the particular cloud cover, the particular particular types of shadows that are on the ground, they get the feel that kind of kind of overcast that you're describing. You know when you give them the photo because they can get that same sense of energy from it. But then that really makes me think about this not also so much about you, who takes the picture and what it means to you like there's some sort of level of universality that, like there's something else as well with me like when I was photographing. Like I would pretty much develop all of the films, all of the photographs on the film I have like boxes in the boxes, some of these photographs, and then I would have like the one box with my favorite the ones all time favorites and then the rest discarded ones. And actually when I went, visited my home last time I brought my books is with me, and I'm going through now, and I'm just looking at those discarded photographs, and I'm having insane joy to look at that because, how the heck is this discarded further what's harmful, but, but this is something about that you see differently, something happened in that time when you took it and when you're right now and you look at it differently, but also to me like I feel, how do we relate to the other people photographs is the same thing right like, how can you tap into this other person's world. You can but this is this, this kind of, I feel like it almost like plays with the, the sense of imagination or something that connects us globally like all of us we share the same ability to to teleport or to like have a like this daydreamer ability to imagine. And I think that, as you said now by this a portal, it is a portal for you to your own imagination, it's almost like a mirror that reflects back to you and says, How do I feel what do I, what can I say about it is it interesting to me is it not. And this is all kind of coming back to you it is kind of your, like, you know, in a way that is that is this photography that is a murder, there are people who tried to fit in this side but it's not about that at all like, you could have somebody beautiful at this photograph or you could have a discarded photograph. Mr equally powerful I love beautiful photographs, there's, there's, I love beautiful photographs I mean there's such a beautiful photographs but I really see it as a tool. I really see it as a tool to, to, to record and to think about time and also when you think about portal and you think about the body bodies that I came, I really think, within the concept of body is archive and we are in the always in the process of becoming like even though we're well knowledgeable we are in very steadily in our, in our life, but we are ongoingly trying to delve into our memories and and so the pictures these pictures really, over time, you were able to really with the work that you do in your own process of becoming you're able to reflect on it in a different way. So it's very much to photograph is a to those I still also really completely turned on by interventions of the photograph like doing different things like interventions like weird interventions. Yeah. I love love love love. And when it happens. So there's other layers. But, but, but, overall, is, is definitely definitely a tool. Definitely. Totally agree. I would argue the body is archived, to me, I feel, I like more becoming, because if you think about, okay, so we might have some genetically coded traits but also the ability to override them in your lifetime, like to me like it's almost like the body's something that rewrites the archive that turns into present and possible futures, but it kind of, it sounds beautiful. What do you mean exactly bodies and archive were like, Yeah, Mark. Go ahead, go ahead, sorry. About what you said now is actually part of it. It really is arm can can come up with that with the archive because it's non literal it's a feelings that comes through a performativity through non literal actions so yeah, in many ways we are, this, this process of thinking and of body memory of thinking about our way. We carry experiences over generation from our ancestral experiences we act in a certain way we do things in a certain way we respond there's some triggers that happen, that we don't really can put the finger on what it is, it can come from over over generation and we carry we carry these things with us, each of us from with our own journey where we come in from siping that's how I feel about body is archive is that. So through performativity through going into this process of, by the way, becoming versus being Deleuze and Guattari wrote about it, about being versus becoming at the place of not knowing and that's where these extreme experiences can come up so it's, and then you can kind of readjust we come with closures, make your own ideas of how it feels and so that's I think that's why I think about body as archive. I think today more than ever it's it's even more acute because of the, you know this virtual complexity of our time like, it's, it's so complex, you're in a certain in moment you're in so many different places and. And I feel like these during the pandemic with all these, everyone was closed in their homes, but there was so many things happen, there's a lot of trauma that come up above the surface, because of of these triggers of seeing and feeling and yeah I don't want it to deviate from like there's, there's many different ways of looking at it but. Yeah. But yeah, I got this much I don't know about the bodies or Kevin, I think I actually really adopt what you're saying that maybe there is another way to put it, maybe it's not just the body of our cup maybe just for me I'm just like, been using it as a scarf holder and been framing most of my ideas around it but I like how you. I like how carry your. You're trying to see maybe there's another way of putting it. I feel that there are two states one is inactive state, and one is state of will and potential for change. And like when let's say I do agree that there is a generational traits and trauma, and, and also cultural aspects imprinted on me that I carry with me. And that's how maybe that archive, I could say that this kind of reference to everything that happened before like I am kind of the, the outcome of that or I am one of the continuing parts that will continue later after me, but I feel like there's this one thing to not to become kind of aware and I don't even know if it's fully possible mentally possible to become self aware of everything that who you are, but if you do if he if there is a sort of like a chance of, of this realization then I think that there is also potential for change, like, in order to say, I am the consequences of this saying, I can do anything about it i, this is, this is why and this is how I am pro, but I feel like there's also this another side of humanity is that our ability to change our right, like I mean, I don't think it's so much about the evolution, but it's more about the saying that everything changes. Nothing stays still, there's no like, even the tradition never stays still, it changes it grows it deforms, it kind of like, it may be flows very slowly but it flows like this this kind of, I feel like even thinking about that, like ocean like something that kind of has this let's say like a static, kind of, you know they are in the ball they don't flow anywhere in the rivers flow, to them, but I feel like even within this like kind of this status that this city bank there's so much inside that keeps changing it from within. And in our account, I think our cap is point in time to re archive is, is just where you say, I am standing on this point and I'm looking back and I can reference. Now to then, and that that is just a perspective. But if you become an archive let's say if you become realization of everything. An archive kind of becomes now and then it sort of melts into ongoing changes like to me like archive is a photograph of change, but not the change itself but once you like, get support into the new kind of flow in the river. Yeah, I can, I can see that, But I, I've, I've come across that same confusion once before, so I don't consider archive as change. I said, I think of it more as the archaeology. And when you think of it that way then you don't get to conflicted about. Well, it can't be this, because that's part of change, and then you're like wait, but he needs to he needs to stand. It's a look back, that's what you're saying right, it should be a look back, and if you think about it as archaeology, it's always a look back. Yeah, the ark, what is the actually root meaning of Ark relating relating to prehistoric or an older time making Ark Ark, Noah's Ark. Ancient it's from the Greek arcaos, with H, ai o s, which means ancient or, you know also how Forster wrote about creating archives from subjectivity, you can use the art, you can actually create any kind of archive that has no meanings for anyone else it's just for you, but also when I think about time when we think that I don't know why but if you leave me in the way relate to this, that feeling of like, leave the present moment is already as nostalgic most nostalgic like that present moment I can. There's a moment in the present that I already feel the sadness of north node. Yeah, when you this, this field. I've only come across. More recently, Media Archaeology. Media Archaeology literally says what you're saying. It's literally about this idea that. Now if you, when you study it, you can almost look at now, some of the experiences that we would have 50 years ago this dog goes back a certain amount of time. But over time, that timeframe in which you can experience the selja has been decreasing significantly that we can get very powerful responsiveness dalje for something that just happened within 24 hours or within a week or within a month, and not 35 years or not 10 anymore. Like it's, you get that from something that just happened, blah blah blah. A coffee coffee is perfect because she's, she's the type of person is very expressive. And sometimes when we talk. I can see it in her eyes she's just remembering something because a word that triggered something, and literally she probably had this discussion with somebody else on now meeting you now that you might be one of those people, where sometimes she heard something that I said, and maybe I'm not focused on it but it triggered her she's like, Oh yeah, yeah. I was talking to someone about a week ago and maybe she's talking about you, about this thing, and she has this nostalgic feeling because of how strong. Yeah, yeah, I says the same with Covey and I really value and I appreciate it. I really appreciate this experience from you I really, I says the same thing it's wonderful because it's like, it tells that you have a such a web of relations within your mind that it's there, there is a certain way, and that's it's inspiring. It's inspiring, a lot of people feel like that's a burden. Right, there's some artists all artists have this has like a little bit of that. But like you like her saying copy like well we appreciate about us, because it's there, it feels like it's structured so it can hold a lot, and then it's expressive when one of those registries is like targeted like word was said, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so, so going back to that moment a weapon style. You can experience as talcher for the future. Well first of all I had this moment when I was back home and I was spending time and I was like sitting with my mom and dad, like on a balcony and just it. Loving this moment, and I felt so sad. Because, like week from then I would be leaving. And it's weird that you are that emotion just like kills Xeo like because you don't want to. You don't want to get there, like you just want to be here and some books I have this when maybe now it's a little bit faded, but you know when you're in a first relationship you are so in love with that person, and you've loved them so much that you feel so sick because if I want to lose them. Then somebody fades away but anyway but I remember, you could be nostalgic about something that hasn't happened yet. Right, that nostalgia. I hope it's okay that I actually did record our conversation through auto I'm using auto, I'm sorry I didn't ask but I hope it's okay. Oh, it's okay. Yeah, no, not a scrape it delete. No, no. FBI so now we're being chased, that was good so many things that I didn't think about the connection to time space in the Toronto Police and n dimensional space to understand your archive, there's so many things that came up that super interesting. So what are you guys thinking of Jammie. Okay, I have a proposal because I started talking about the list this script and breaks. I would love to better ways to spread the word here, and I might be that is the bike ride that is our two markers. And so there's these breaks that look like this egg shapes, and, and I feel like it connects to this idea of Toronto Police maybe we could even build a Toronto Police with these brakes because some people actually construct things with these items is random things. And one thing is, maybe that's something up for discussion completely but I would love to actually bring this back to the cafe and when we do the performance inside the cafe somehow one to connect these elements, I don't know how yet, but one thing is go to the Leslie's paper friend God document photograph of form whatever do with this, collect some of these to bring to the shelf for the exhibition. And, but it's more we were talking about performing inside the coffee shop in one evening, where we could invite a small piece of people like might be like we're not promoted hugely but I'd say like a small amount, and we have outside sitting areas in a patio, and use the window to bag project from inside, and to for the people outside and have also a speaker, that the word project the sound that happens inside but it will be just three of us inside the coffee shop performing for the people outside. This is really, yeah, yeah. Yes, and we can play with different different visuals different materials, what is existed what's not existed, other layers have existed layers and just to play an improvised free flow. I think this is a great opportunity for me to, to bring out my synthesizer. because I want to NX it's 100% analog and I need more reasons to move away from my computer as often as possible. So yeah, I think this is a great opportunity for that because real people create sounds from scratch. Yes. Yes. That's amazing, and does it run on a battery before. It's because it's raw voltage right, so how would you then record or solidify that same. Well that's where we can use the computer. Yeah, I can also have. Luckily said some battery. Like a wireless speaker that we can use like big world speakers by the speakers. Yeah, we could have this little, the one that you brought to the conference mark is a little guide the wireless. Yeah, it's not very good for its wireless but we can we can try it, it needs to be powered. Okay, here's a good one. Okay, I have I have actually two good speakers that I can bring in one with batteries one with one with wire. Yeah, we don't need like super powerful because I feel like there's also going to be songs over the water, wind DNI they will be so much other senses we will probably like a capture. Okay, so why don't we just figure out that day. And so we can plan around them. Fantastic. Yeah. So, how you guys.

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